Place kick for touch

When Argentina played Australia, Sanchez tried a PK for goal, but the ball hit a post and rebounded into touch without another player touching it.  Wayne Barnes awarded the lineout to Australia in line with Clarification 2 of 2006 which laconically says:

"If the penalty kick is for goal, then it is a lineout defending team to throw in.Law 21.4(d)."

It also adds "If the penalty kick is for touch, therefore no place kick, then it is a lineout attacking team to throw in."

21.4 (d) is now 21.4 (e).  The kicker "must not place kick for touch"  If he does so, the sanction is an opposition scrum at the mark for the penalty.

If a "place kick FOR touch" implies intention, then in this case it was obviously accidental, and a PK into touch leaves the throw with the kicking team.

If a "place kick FOR touch" includes accidents, then the outcome should be a scrum.

How did the Designated Members reach their conclusion? 

Peter Shortell 

Hi Peter

Unfortunately I am not privy to the Designated Members decisions.  I do not even know who the Designated Members are?  So cannot help with how they came to this conclusion.

Like a policeman I do not write the laws, I just uphold them.  In the example, which was a kick for goal, Wayne Barnes got the decision correct.

Ours not to reason why......

The Rugby Ref

Another question about 19.8....

Hi .. You’ve addressed a query about 19.8.  I have another you might help with “A player must not take a quick throw-in after the lineout has formed” .. and quick throw ins are often prevented by a defending player (often a back) chasing the kick to form the lineout, but then retreats when the lineout participants arrive.  However 19.8(d)  says: “Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended” Surely the chaser must remain in the lineout? Martin

Hi Martin

What we have to remember is that there are two types of throw in, a "Quick Throw In", and a "Lineout".   These are treated separately in the Laws.  What you describe is players forming a mini lineout to prevent a "Quick Thrown In, which cannot be taken once a lineout has formed.  This takes two players from each side.

Once the "Quick Throw In" has been voided, then we are looking for players arriving at the line of touch to form the "Lineout".

Technically you are correct in that they may have approached the line of touch, but in reality these players who race up to prevent the Quick Throw In are probably going to be fast wingers or backs.  They are a different set of players to the ones that then arrive for the full lineout.  The full lineout hasn't formed until the "proper" lineout players arrive.

It's an area where the law says one thing, but common sense says another.  As usual we have to look at why the law was written that way?  It was to prevent a set of players forming a lineout, then swapping some out to counter a change by the opposition, then maybe swapping again, delaying the lineout.

Remember, unlike other sports the Laws of Rugby Union are essentially a framework which the referee uses to facilitate a game of rugby.  There are many grey areas in the laws and very few black and white ones.

The Rugby Ref

Another line out question

There is a 30 sec time for forming a scrum after the ref has made his mark. What about a line out?Cheers.Lawrence

Hi Lawrence

Law 19.8 Forming a Lineout states

19.8(d) When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to doso to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay.Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in thelineout until the lineout has ended.Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

The key phrase is "Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay."
How long is without delay?  The law is silent on that, so it is up to the referee's discretion.  The Rugby Ref would suggest that if everyone is standing around waiting for one team, then the referee will tell them to hurry up, if he has to tell them more than once or twice, then he will be thinking about a Free Kick for delaying the lineout.  There is no hard and fast answer.

The Rugby Ref

Under 15 law at lineout

Having just refereed an Under 15 game today, with the new lineout regulations for U15s, there are a few questions left!
If the lineout is not straight, do normal rules apply, and non-throwing team have choice of lineout or scrum?
At what point does the lineout become 'contested' again?
If a team opts not to lift, presumably the lineout still has to be uncontested?
If the jumper is missed, is the lineout still uncontested?  So, with an overthrow to a jumper at 2, can team not throwing in then play the ball?
Should the referee give a signal/call when the lineout is now contested?  Presumably that is different to the line out being over (so catcher catches the ball, but is in the air, he is then lowered to the ground - the lineout is not over, but the opposition can now contest the ball - but this needs calling, I presume)
Many thanks for any help!
Chris Townsend

Hi Chris

The Rugby Ref has checked with a couple of Community Rugby foundations on this question.  The consensus was that the uncontested part of the lineout refers to the ball in the air.  So the ball has to be thrown straight, the lifters and jumpers can practise lifting along with catching the ball uncontested.  Once the ball has left the lineout or the jumper has returned to ground with the ball, we are back to normal play.

So to answer your questions:

Not straight, as per normal laws.

Contested once the ball leaves or the jumper returns to the ground.

No lift is still uncontested.

If the jumper is missed, the throwing in side must still gain first possession of the ball, so no.

Whether the referee calls this is up to him, I would suggest not.

Thanks

The Rugby Ref